Great Books Ep 91. Euripides - Orestes. Population: Too Many or Too Few?
In the past people feared overpopulation. But now, in spite of low child mortality and innovative techniques to give birth, more and more nations are facing population decline every year.
“for the gods by means of Helen's loveliness embroiled Troy and Hellas, causing death thereby, that they might lighten mother Earth of the outrage done her by man’s excessive population.”
~ ‘Orestes’ by Euripides (Edward P. Coleridge translation. GB5 - p. 410)
Brief Summary
The play starts with a monologue from Electra, who talks about her family’s origins and the current state. Starting with Tantalus, their ancestor, who was punished by Zeus for talking too much at a feast, to Thyestes, whose sons were killed by his brother Atreus, to Atres’s son Agamemnon, who was killed by his wife Clytaemnestra, to Agamemnon’s son Orestes who killed his own mother, they have always had bloodshed and strife in every generation. She says her brother Orestes is ill, plagued by guilt, haunted by the Furies and they are shunned by their city. She has heard that her uncle Menelaus is back from Troy and hopes he might help them.
Helen comes in and expresses her sorrow for her sister Clytaemnestra’s death. She wants to go to her sister’s tomb to give offerings but is afraid to go in public because the people of Argos hate her for starting the gruesome war. So she sends her daughter Hermione, who was cared for by her sister when she was in Troy. Orestes wakes up and feels refreshed but is confused as to where he is. But soon he gets possessed by the Furies and is in a delirious state. Electra feels sorry for him and calms him down. Orestes says he is sad to have killed his mother, but it was Apollo who asked him to do it.
Menelaus comes in and is shocked at Orestes’ appearance and asks him about the state of things. Orestes tells him that he is haunted by the Furies and is a prisoner in the city where he was meant to rule, and people are contemplating punishing him for matricide. Clytaemnestra’s father, Tyndareus, comes in and scolds Orestes for being a godless wretch. He says his daughter deserved punishment for things that she did. Even if she deserved exile or death, Orestes should not have taken the law into his hands. He says Orestes must be tried and found guilty. He cautions Menelaus against helping Orestes. Menelaus defends family loyalty but defers to Tyndareus and tells Orestes that he wants to help but has practical limitations.
After they go away, Orestes and his friend Pylades decide that the honorable thing is to go and face the assembly for the verdict. After they go, Electra comes in to find out that they left without telling her. After a while, a messenger comes in and says that the assembly of citizens voted for Orestes’ death. He says that other than Diomedes, no one strongly vouched for not putting Orestes to death. Orestes and Pylades come in and they tell Electra that their fate is decided and they are going to kill themself than being killed. Pylades says that if they are anyway going to die, why not kill Helen and cause Menelaus pain since Menelaus didn’t come to their aid. Orestes will then be called ‘killer of Helen, the murderess’ than ‘killer of his mother’. They all agree, and Electra suggests that they take Hermione hostage in case Menelaus wants to take revenge for killing his wife.
Orestes and Pylades go into the palace to kill Helen, but she mysteriously vanishes during the murder attempt. Menelaus gets news of this and comes in. Orestes takes Hermione hostage on the palace roof, and with a sword on Hermione’s neck, he tells Menelaus to go to the city council and reverse their sentencing. Apollo appears suddenly during this stand-off with Helen beside him and tells Orestes to calm down. He says that Helen has been deified and that the gods used her beauty as an instrument to cause war to reduce population. He says Orestes should marry Hermione (and predicts Neoptolemus’ death) and Pylades should marry Electra. He says Orestes should go into exile for a year and then face trial for murder in Athens. Everyone agrees, and peace is restored.
My Thoughts
When you read Aeschylus and Sophocles’ plays on the events, you feel sad for Orestes and Electra. But Euripides adds a lot of extra dimensions and you feel sad for Clytaemnestra in the play Electra, especially when she defends herself and urges Orestes to not kill her. Also, after you read Andromache, where Orestes plots to kill Neoptolemus, you get a picture of Orestes as a villain than a hero. Well, one takeaway is that when you harbor a grudge and prepare for revenge for many years, it affects your psyche. The demon that you wanted to crush gets into you, and you become the demon. Through the play, Euripides touches on many societal themes - family support for someone who broke the law, seeking justice, jury voting for criminal offenses, arguments at a trial, equality, different treatment for women vs men, and so forth.
The quote about excessive population towards the end of the play was surprising. It made me think that people have always worried about overpopulation. People have said that wars and natural disasters are punishments from gods to reduce population. I guess the problem always has been the worry about finite resources and how so many people could be supported. This is probably the primary cause for fear and hatred of immigrants. People had this fear even when the population of Earth and major cities was a fraction of what it is today. We’re able to sustain so many more people because of the advances in food production and energy production. There is nothing stopping more advancements in these areas. But, ironically, when we’re poised to make tremendous improvements in food and energy and possibly support a lot more people to live and thrive on earth, there is a population decrease. More and more nations are facing population decline every year and are implementing policies to encourage childbirth, without much success. This is in spite of very low child mortality and techniques like IVF to create children for couples who couldn’t have children in the past due to multiple reasons. One reason could be that modern life is complex, with too many things to do, and raising a child is expensive and labor-intensive. Billionaires who say people should have more kids also demand that their workforce spend all their time and energy at work. So, the solution is not in simply encouraging more births, but in creating environments where having children feels more sustainable and less at odds with other aspects of modern life.
AI Response to the Post
Podcast of the episode (Generated by Notebooklm)
Text Response (Gemini)
1. Population Concerns Across Time
You’re right, the idea of overpopulation isn’t new. It echoes throughout history, often tied to anxieties about resource scarcity and social stability.
Ancient Fears: In ancient Greece, the idea of a “Golden Age” where humans lived in harmony with abundant nature was often contrasted with the perceived struggles of their own time. Philosophers like Plato even suggested ideal population sizes for cities to function optimally. This fear of exceeding the carrying capacity of the land is a recurring theme throughout history.
Modern Twist: The current population decline in many developed countries flips this anxiety on its head. It raises questions about economic growth, social welfare systems, and even the long-term survival of some cultures. It’s interesting that while we have the technological capacity to support more people than ever, social and economic factors are leading to fewer births. As you mentioned, the demands of modern life, economic insecurity, and changing priorities play a significant role.
2. Deeper Analysis of “Orestes”
Euripides, often called the “most tragic” of the Greek tragedians, uses “Orestes” to explore complex and uncomfortable truths about justice, revenge, and the human condition. Here are some key themes and symbols:
The Cycle of Violence: The play vividly portrays the cyclical nature of violence and revenge. The House of Atreus is trapped in a blood feud passed down through generations. Orestes, though initially driven by a sense of duty to avenge his father, becomes consumed by guilt and madness. This highlights the destructive consequences of perpetuating violence, even when justified under the guise of justice.
The Role of the Gods: The gods in “Orestes” are ambiguous figures. Apollo orders Orestes to commit matricide, then seemingly abandons him to face the consequences. The deus ex machina ending, where Apollo suddenly appears to resolve the conflict, can be seen as both a restoration of order and a commentary on the capricious nature of divine intervention. The play questions the role of divine authority in human morality and justice.
Justice and the Law: The play contrasts different concepts of justice: divine law, family duty, and civic law. Orestes is caught between these conflicting demands. The trial scene highlights the complexities of legal systems and the challenges of achieving true justice.
Gender Dynamics: Euripides often challenges traditional gender roles in his plays. In “Orestes,” Electra is a strong and independent woman who actively participates in the plot. Helen, though initially presented as a figure of blame, ultimately escapes punishment, raising questions about how women are judged and held accountable in a patriarchal society.
Lessons for Today:
Beware of Cycles of Violence: The play warns against the dangers of seeking revenge and the importance of breaking free from cycles of violence. This message resonates in contemporary conflicts around the world.
Question Authority: “Orestes” encourages us to critically examine received wisdom and the dictates of authority figures, whether they be religious, political, or social.
Justice is Complex: The play highlights the complexities of justice and the challenges of creating a fair and equitable legal system. It reminds us that there are often multiple perspectives and no easy answers.
3. Thought-Provoking Questions:
Does the play offer a critique of Athenian democracy, given the assembly’s decision to condemn Orestes?
How does Euripides portray the psychological effects of trauma and guilt?
Is Orestes ultimately a hero, a villain, or a victim of circumstance?
How do the female characters in the play challenge or reinforce traditional gender roles?
Does the deus ex machina ending undermine the play’s tragic impact, or does it serve a deeper thematic purpose?
Euripides’ “Orestes” is a play that continues to provoke discussion and debate centuries after it was written. It grapples with timeless questions about justice, morality, and the human condition, offering insights that remain relevant in our modern world.
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